Re: Stereotypes

[P3D Dr. George A. Themelis <fj834@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I normally do not like to drag arguments for too long but it is not often
that my observations and thoughts are called "invalid", "pointless",
"harmful", "insulting", or, to put it kindly, "silly".

Greg Wageman writes:

>What I'm saying is that your "data" is invalid, and therefore 
>it is not only pointless to draw any conclusions from it (and then 
>manufacture "explanations" for them), it could be harmful (or at 
>least insulting) to the segment of the population that you claim is 
>under-represented.

I really do not see how could these observations be harmful or insulting to
any one.  Saying that the ratio of women collecting View-Master is higher
than the same ratio for men, who exactly am I hurting and how?  Did I say
or implied that women should not collect stereo views because it is a man's
area?  Did I say or implied that men should not be collecting View Master
reels?  No, I did not.  I personally collect both stereo views and View
Master reels and I welcome new people to the area of stereo photography and
stereo image collecting.

>You can't possibly know every collector of either VM or stereoviews

Do you need to know EVERY collector of VM or stereoviews to make
observations about general trends?  

>(no one could; those two groups must encompass millions of people).

I personally estimate the number of those people to two orders of magnitude
lower - a few dozen thousands.

>The only valid conclusion we can reach from your observation, assuming
>it is correct, is that "Dr. T. knows more women collectors of VM than
>he does of stereoviews".  To presume that this generalizes to the
>entire population (even if just the U.S.A., and collectors of VM and
>stereoviews are by no means so restricted) is, to put it kindly, silly.

Thank you for your kindness, but it is not silly at all.  Dr. T. also knows
more men stereo photographers than women.  Would it be silly to generalize
this observation for the entire population?  Would it hurt any one?

In the area of VM collecting, three of the most prominent collectors are
women.  They are:

1. Mary Ann Sell ("The VM lady from Cincinnati")
2. Susan Pinsky
3. Dalia Miller

Of course, they are plenty of men too.  I also know of at least a dozen
more women who collect View Master reels.  In the area of Stereo View
collecting, all the prominent collectors are men.  I personally do not know
any woman who collects stereo views.  From the photo 3-d postings I have
only seen one woman posting in the area of stereo views.  Her name is Susan
Wageman.

>Now, if you want to restrict yourself to, say, the NSA membership
>directory listings for what people (say they) collect, we would at
>least have a semi-objective data source (but still self-selecting
>and self-reporting).  

What does "self-selecting" and "self-reporting" mean?  It is a good source
of data, biased perhaps towards stereo view collecting. There was also an
organization of VM and Tru-Vue collectors (now defunct - I was a member). 
I suspect that it had quite a few women members and some of them they even
wrote articles in the newsletter.  I do not recall ever seeing an article
on stereo views in Stereo World written by a woman.

>There's the question as to whether people who
>have few reels consider themselves "collectors" or not.

Valid question.  For me, a collector is not a person who owns a few VM
reels because of fond childhood memories, but a person who is trying to
increase the size or change the focus of the collection by buying
more reels or trading with other collectors.  

There is room for some interesting discussion on these subjects but calling
the other side's arguments invalid, pointless, silly, insulting, harmful,
does not help.  And I still need to know to whom and why they are harmful 
and insulting.

George Themelis


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