Re: Konica IR versus Kodak HIE

[eml@xxxxxxxxx]

> 
> On  7 Sep 96 at 2:13, eml@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
> 
> > The first film I ever bulk-loaded was Eastman #400 Survewillence Film,
> > commonly known as HIE, back in 1968.  I have used it a number of
> > times since, until I discovered the Konica lots of years ago and went
> > in on buying a case of it from Japan.  The HIE bulk-loading was no
> > problem, and camera-loading was not a problem if you could find some
> > heavily-shadowed area and work quickly, losding maybe the first 5 
> > frames at worst.  
> 
> Can you remember what you paid for the bulk roll of #400 in those 
> days? How long for how much?
>  
I did not pay for the film.  I had never bulk-loaded before, and had
bought a Watson bulk-loader at a local photo club "yard sale".  The
free film made me brave enough to try!  In fact, it was leftover film,
considered "out of date" by a major New York bank, who used it in their 
Robot Recorder surveillance cameras, with long-roll backs.  They bought
the stuff in multile-case lots and refrigerated it until needed.  Occa-
sionally, someone would miss a few rolls when openoing a new case, and
the film was thrown out when found months later.  That's where the roll
I got was headed!  Its expiry date had passed and it was on its way out.
A friend of my father's gave it to him for me, knowing I was experimanting
a bit.

> 
> > I contend that Kodak should be producing THAT, and
> > distributing it to the public.  Or at the very least, putting a 
> > gelatin antihalation coating on HIE wouldn't kill them.
> 
> But it would definately kill sales in the 'art department'....and it
> seems as if gelatine isn't suitable for IR blocking either....
> Would be interesting to know the sales split between 'art', science and 
> military, for both HIE and IE....
> 
I agree wholeheartedly.  But gelatine with an appropriate dye, applied
to the back of the film, much like the rem-jet coating on Kodachrome,
would work just fine.  The dye could be water-soluble and come out in 
washing.  I'm thinking of any of thousands of dyes which do filter
out infrared.  Mix it with any suitable dye of the sort used by Kodak
on their sheet and rollfilms' backs for ntihalation purposes (thery're
all on water-white Estar or Acetate also...) and Presto! Antihalation
HIE!  Unfortunately, I thbink the market is probably too small to
support both a standard and an AH version of HIE, so I personally 
would vote for an AH version.  How about resensitizing TMZ... Now THAT
would be one bodacious IR film!!!!!

> Anyway, whatever they improve in this regard, please let them add it
> to the program, and not *replace* HIE! 
> 
> 
> > I HAVE used the product.  I hate grungy, blobby grain.  I hate
> > halation.  They don't fit my photography.  If they fit your
> > perception and style, well fine! Go to it! I will not criticize
> > what you choose to photograph or how, and certainly have no
> > interest in belittling you.  I expect the sdame in return.
> 
> FWIW, I am still pondering on the halation phenomena....if
> reflection off the pressure plate is the main (?only?) cause, and
> killing it within the film with gelatine isn't possible....what
> about applying an IR absorbing layer to the pressure plate?
> On further thought, I am now pondering about using a very dark IR 
> filter to achieve that. Not a #87C, but a much darker color. I have 
> some gelatine samples, including a few very dark ones (presumably 
> #87A equivalents, with a 50% transmission @ 1005nm). Being a 
> gelatine, they will be vulnerable to scratching, but I could 
> protect/attach it with a sheet of clear, self adhesive plastic. 
> To make the outcome of this experiment even more interesting, I also 
> would need to run a film with a maximum reflective surface, ie 
> aluminium foil taped with the same plastic.
> 
The halation is the result of internal (and external) reflection of light
from the rear surface of the film toward the front... out of focus, of
course.  The only real answer is coating the back of the film or using,
as Konica and Ilford do, dyed stock.

> Mmm....any thoughts on this?
> Am I reinventing the wheel with this experiment? 
> Anyone done this, or read about it?
> How much sense does it make?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
Ed

-- 
    _/_/_/_/ _/_/    _/ _/   | Edward M. Lukacs 
   _/       _/ _/ _/_/ _/    | eml@xxxxxxxxx 
  _/_/_/   _/  _/  _/ _/     | 3850 Tunlaw Road, NW, Apt. 815 
 _/       _/      _/ _/      | Washington, DC 20007
_/_/_/_/ _/      _/ _/_/_/_/ | Telephone: (95) 202-338-1489


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Topic No. 4