P3D Re: Salon judging

[Derek Gee <73157.2172@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I wrote:
>At the DSS, we like new ideas, we just don't believe that a prestigious
>International Salon is the place to be debating them.  These things need
>to be decided well ahead of time.

George asks:
>What does that mean?  What debate?  Judging is not a science
>or we would have computers doing it.  It is a matter of personal
>interpretation.  A "new" judge brings his or her own point of view,
>which can be a big plus for the survival and development of PSA.

What I was trying to convey by my remarks is that if you have "new
ideas" (e.g. changes to procedures or standards/requirements), you
should not be deciding these during a Salon judging.  While judging
is not an exact science, there are a number of reference articles
from which you can begin to learn how to fairly judge a photo
competition.  Anyone can make judgements - we all do it everyday.
It is learning how to fairly and consistantly apply your judgements to
each entrant that makes an experienced judge stand out from an inexperienced
one. 

Me again:
>George was questioned by Bill Turner because he had only judged one 
>competition at the DSS ever, and after thinking about it, George agreed 
>that he was inexperienced.

>I am inexperienced in the sense that I have never judged an 
>International PSA Salon, but in addition to the one DSS competition I 
>have judged all the Ohio Stereo Photographic Society competitions last 
>year and have participated for 5 years in the DSS competitions and 
>have been entering PSA Salons for 4 years now.  If I ever wanted to 
>judge a PSA Salon I have to start from somewhere.  I thought that 
>Detroit was a good place to start because it is the closest to 
>Cleveland and I can easily drive there back and forth in one day.
>What experiences would make me qualified enough to judge my first PSA 
>Salon?  More club judging is really not an option for an active
>participant in club competitions.  As BobH said, a stereo club is 
>place where those who take pictures are judged by those who do not 
>take pictures.

I was under the mistaken impression that you were not actively judging
in Cleveland.  I suppose I should talk with Bill Turner to find out
more about what he felt you needed before I comment publicly here.  One
problem that we have in the DSS is that our judging system makes it
difficult for people who compete every month to judge.  We try to select
judges who are active photographers, but don't have slides entered in 
that month's competition.  We also like to pair two experienced judges with
one inexperienced judge so that the new judge can gain experience.  For
months where there aren't three judges who don't have slides in competition,
we rely on a fourth judge, whose score is only used when the one of the
judges scores a zero (to indicate that their slides are on screen).  The
club has had discussions about making this fourth judge system permanent,
but there has not been a clear consensus from the members to do it.  Perhaps
it is time to raise the question again.

Boris writes:
>To my surprise, I had no trouble with making the "critical distinctions
>between first and second place entries in a field crowded with
>distinction."  My biggest problem was with being in almost complete
>disagreement with my fellow judges on what I thought were some of the most
>creative stereo views.  Indeed, despite my best efforts (read: arguing with
>the judges), stereoviews that I strongly felt deserving of high awards did
>not get them - indeed, some of the best views were not even accepted!

My first reaction to your comment is, "Are you so sure you had no problem
making distinctions?"  It's impossible without seeing the slides you were
discussing for me to agree or disagree with your views, but if two other
judges were so different from your scores it makes me wonder why?
Did the other judges explain to you why they felt the way the did?  If the
judges were using similar criteria for scoring, it is unusual for the
scores between judges to differ by a point or two.

>Two things that should be considered here:
>1.  Despite my voting, which in retrospect was often contrary to the
>"experienced wisdom" of the other two judges, I don't believe that the
>Salon results were very much influenced by my apparently "new
>interpretations."  In other words, I doubt a novice judge could do much
>damage.

Actually a novice judge CAN shift the outcome to some degree, but placing
two experienced judges with them will help minimize the variations in scores.

>2.  If new ideas _are_ to be judged well in International Salons, you've
>got to take a chance on some younger judges who are active in the arts.  My
>guess is that precious few of these will qualify as "experienced" under Mr.
>Gee's criteria.  (That's because they have careers and families, and what
>little time they have left for art, they will not spend on club activities
>such as judging - or even competing.  Instead, they prefer to create new
>art.)

Here you have that "new ideas" phrase again.  Perhaps you could explain
what your definition is?  Contemporary photography seems to do pretty well
in the Detroit International Salon.  It also scores high in club
competitions.  And younger (age) has little to do with it.  I'm one of the
younger members in the DSS, but I've been pretty active for most of my 15
years in it.  Contrary to Boris' assertion that "precious few of us will
qualify as experienced", the truth is that we have had no shortage of
experienced judges for the Detroit International Salon.  Our club continues
to train our members by presenting judging programs every couple of years,
and making available handouts on good judging.  DSS members are always welcome
to volunteer to judge club contests.  We just prefer that they have experience
before the judge the International Salon.

More Boris:
>I believe it is to the credit of the PSSP, that they will take the chance
>on an inexperienced judge - in this way furthering the rejuvenation of this
>venerable art of stereo photography.

If I read your comment correctly - that you had no experience in judging at the 
Potomac Club prior to judging the Potomac International Stereo Slide Exhibition -
then I'm afraid I must disagree with you.

                                     Derek Gee
                                     President
                                     Detroit Stereographic Society


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