T3D Re: Percieved 'flaming'

[John W Roberts <roberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

[Lines manually edited to ~80 chars]

>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 05:51:32 -0600
>From: ddd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: T3D Percieved 'flaming'

>I received this post from a George Themelis, quoting a recent posting of 
>mine to Tech-3d:

>--------------------------------------------------------
>>I almost totally agree with Eric Goldstein, and find Mr.Kessners 
>>comments somewhat, well, insulting, i suppose...
>>Mr. Kessner, you could not be more wrong.

>This is called "flaming" in my book.  If you do it again, I will ususbscribe 
>you from tech-3d.  Also, please put a limit to your characters per line as 
>your messages (without line breaks) are not readable from certain mail readers.

>With all due respect,

>George Themelis, moderator
>--------------------------------------------------------

>   First, i will ask anyone else who read my initial post to please inform 
>me if they thought the above quotes inflammatory or delivered in an 
>inflammatory manner (Off-list, please; I only post here to reach all parties). 

Yes, I thought they were delivered in an inflammatory manner. (I will repeat
that off-list if you like, but since you have turned this into a meta-
discussion of what the content of the list should be, I feel it is appropriate
to have some of the discussion on the list.)

>Allow me to say that it indeed was _not_ delivered with rude intent, nor was 
>it my intent to insult Mr. Kessner. Rather, the point of my words was to 
>clearly state my disagreement with his words. 

Then instead of "Mr. Kessner, you could not be more wrong", why not say
"Mr. Kessner, that statement could not be more wrong", or even better,
"Mr. Kessner, I could not disagree more strongly with that statement"?
If you wish to interact with humans, then you should be aware that it's
not just *what you say* that's important, but *how you say it*.

>   I question the 'guidance' that you offer, Mr. Themelis; If a discussion 
>that has offended no one but you (no-one has replied and complained to me 
>directly, condemning my words, *even Mr. Kessner*), 

Most people will not bother to send you a message even if they are offended
or consider your post inappropriate. For myself, I considered the tone of
the post inappropriate, but didn't feel it was worth it for me to comment,
since the topic was likely to die out soon anyway. (As it turns out, it didn't.)

>well, frankly, what business is it of yours 

Because he's the MODERATOR - a valuable and almost always thankless task.
When the 3D lists were created, the founders decided on a set of guidelines
for the subject matter and tone of discussions, and set up a system of reactive
moderation (in other words, the moderators don't pre-screen every message -
they just react when a problem comes up). Largely because of these choices,
these 3D lists have been among the most valuable and most civil on the
Internet.

>to condemn what, frankly again, your relatively 
>recent American citizenship and apparent hypersensitvity 

If you're going to make ad hominem remarks part of your case, don't forget
to include his hair color and shoe size.

>   I am on this group to learn more about technical matters of stereoscopy, 

Me too. Elements of the technical and human interface matters on the 3D
lists are relevant to my work.

>and usually am just a 'lurker', but when I see someone's viewpoint as being 
>misleading, I expect and demand the opportunity to disagree with them in a 
>polite and civil manner, which I had done.

Sounds fine, as long as it *is* polite and civil.

>   If my posts must meet with your own particular set of Guidelines under 
>penalty of censorship and expulsion, perhaps you should post a list of 
>'forbidden words & phrases', and outline exactly where your line is drawn 
>regarding your percieved 'tone of apparent intent.' I'm sure the whole group 
>would benefit should there be an 'Etiquette Line' we all must toe...

Everyone who subscribes receives a welcome message that includes the
guidelines for discussion. Find yours and read it again.

>   Otherwise, let the group speak for itself, please, and respond to 
>complaints at that time...

As a member of the group, I hereby respond in this post.

>   As for line length of my posts; Does Word Wrap not function for all 
>newsreaders? 

Not all people who read email use readers that have word wrap. It's also
very hard in some editors to do precision editing of long lines for precise
email replies.

>If not, I apologise to the group for any offense (though for the 
>life of me, I cannot see how a long line of text could possibly be 
>offensive...).

It's not a matter of being offensive - just a matter of following a set of
widely agreed-upon guidelines for polite discourse.

As is the matter of your cross-posting of your message to the S3D list,
which is supposed to be only for matters pertaining pretty much directly
to people wanting to sell or buy equipment.

One more comment: I really think that before posting, you should have read
the first part of Mr. Kessner's post more carefully - he specifically
addressed the issue you said he was wrong about.

[My opinions.]
John R


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